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  #1  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:58 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Default Is anything really random?

I see alot of functions described as random both in Numerology and other programs, The Random Lfo waves is one of the most common examples..


I speculate that true random doesn't exist.

I would call randomess a state of observation, of seeing that is incomplete, or too narrow to see the wider influences that may be at work, that induce states when seen with "tunnel vision" seem random, or unexplainable. But in reality they are patterned inter-connected processes like anything else..

Casuality as opposed to randomness.

I'll get back to this. But the ideas I having on this have a bearing on some of the terminology in the modular synthesis sequencing world. Getting a handle on this could perhaps help me to get a grip on how to use these "Randomizing" tools in my creative process.

Wade
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  #2  
Old 08-13-2012, 04:09 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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A random event. Is there such a thing..

let's follow a dust mote sitting perhaps in your window sill. That it lands there is that a result of a random black science, voodoo, a quark, that appears out of nowhere and directly landed on your window sill?

It's was a finite number of events that led to the dust mote landing where it did. The number of events perhaps is too large and too obscured by the relative time from the creation of this dustmote and it "now" in it's present state where we discover it when perhaps we are absently dusting off the window sill. It's history is unobserved, but not random in the least, just too time consuming and insignificant for most purposes to spend time and energy following it's course. If that were even possible.

It's not random, it's unobserved, but that does not necessarily mean that these unobserved event's would be insiginificant, for perhaps a composer or producer, and artist could use chains to better understand his enviroment, and increase the sense of the real in his work.

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 08-13-2012 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:20 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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The devil is in the details is an old expression, that anyone who trys to build something just halfway complicated, or arrange a happening a gathering with many variables has to have experienced.

But can we really honestly blame the margin of success or failure in these projects upon pure random chance? I think mostly not. Failure results often enough in unrealistic goals, or misconceptions about ones own capacity or that of coworkers, or of the tools and materials used.

On the other had another expression like he was "lucky" or "as luck would have it" also comes up when a chain of events lead to a success outcome and which seems to arrive out of nowhere to the casual observer..

I like to overbuild when I do things. It's my preferred modus, I'm lazy and like to do things once. In the long run I have a sense that it pays off. When something I made is still standing after many many years, is that a state of affairs that can be written off with a statement like "as luck would have it" ?

I like the idea that something we call "Random" can influence the outcome of what I do in a positive way. On the otherhand we often hear when things go wrong that accidents do happen.

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 08-13-2012 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:43 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Some Science speak about describing underwater sound beam channels.. Probably military application..

The scattering of a weakly divergent narrow sound beam by random inhomogeneities of a fluctuating ocean is considered in the coupled-mode approximation. The random index of sound refraction is described using the Garrett-Munk internal wave spectrum. The problem is solved using the stochastic differential equations for the first-and second-order statistical moments of the acoustic field. The equations are formulated according to the cumulant expansion method. The existence of weakly divergent narrow sound beams in long-range sound propagation was one of the last discoveries of L.M. Brekhovskikh, to which he attached much importance. The concentration of sound into narrow beams away from the axis of the underwater sound channel was first observed experimentally and then explained by Brekhovskikh and his former students Goncharov, Kurtepov, and Petukhov. In the present paper, the scattered field intensity of a sound beam is calculated for different frequencies and source depths. Analytical expressions are obtained for the coefficients of the differential equation. The intermode energy transfer that accompanies the long-range propagation of a weakly divergent sound beam is analyzed. A comparison with the conventionally used Monte Carlo simulation in the parabolic equation approximation is performed.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:52 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Article from Wikipedia on Aleatoric Music.

Sort of what I'm doing with my Numerology setups..

Anno Mega 2012.

actually a lot of work to make something that I in the final analysis have to proclaim that "I" didn't compose this!

Wade
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:06 PM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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So Random influence is really patterned at some higher order, but perhaps all this is just being pendantic, and if it appears random, and is percieved as being audibly random then so it is.

But then is pure randomness practically speaking useful, or does the output of a randomly genrated influence in a music or production framwork need so much coaching to get it into a useful state that this anciliary phase of coaching in effect defeats the purpose of the whole exercise..

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 08-13-2012 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:54 PM
jonahs jonahs is offline
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Random can mean without conscious decision making and in the analog realm interconnected feedback systems with different fault tolerances can produce what I feel is true randomness.

Part of what you are talking about is often called pseudo-randomness or seeded or algorithmic randomness. Although the big question in a lot of cases is, was there a "seed" for this feedback system! It's a philosophical/spiritual debate that's raged for millennia, so I can't help there!

My feeling though is that it is both random and patterned at the same time!

Also, as far as I understand it, "real" randomness rather than the appearance of randomness is actually quite difficult within a computer system.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:18 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonahs View Post
Random can mean without conscious decision making and in the analog realm interconnected feedback systems with different fault tolerances can produce what I feel is true randomness.
This area of Feedback systems for audio/CV modulations in analog systems is something that I shoul like to investigate. Bazille by Urs Heckman might be a good place to work with these ideas in software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonahs View Post

Part of what you are talking about is often called pseudo-randomness or seeded or algorithmic randomness. Although the big question in a lot of cases is, was there a "seed" for this feedback system! It's a philosophical/spiritual debate that's raged for millennia, so I can't help there!
I think it really boils down to it being mis defined. In the cases then where it is seeded or algorithmic. Then it's not Random, it is patterned, with the intention of creating variation..Not full randomness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonahs View Post

My feeling though is that it is both random and patterned at the same time!
Then it is misdefined and misleading, which means when you are looking to use the socalled "randomize tool" you don't have a linguistic signpost as to it's relevant usage. Patterned variation generation is more to the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonahs View Post


Also, as far as I understand it, "real" randomness rather than the appearance of randomness is actually quite difficult within a computer system.
I always find the texturization forms in film animations, that are generated using psuedo random as being strangely sterile, look at a mountain side in real life and one generated by using random texturization and it's easy to see whats real and what's not.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:31 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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Randomness, is often used to create or explain natural phenomena, like the textures on the surface of stone for Computer Generated Graphics.

Or for dealing with all the variables in mathematical descriptions of complex enviroments, which what I sense they are doing in the text example of science speak earlier in this thread.

I'll go through that text with a dictionary to get a better understanding of the terms used as I see they are also often used when describing various music composition techniques of the last 70 years Read the Wiki article for more on this.

What I find interesting about all this science is that it's main application in relation to the Arts is to create the appearance of the natural.

I like the idea that we can work with these tools to refine, and increase the depth and breadth of the naturalism of chance within the framework of a compostion, or soundscape. I find that anything that I can think of in the creative process is often tradition bound, or tricks of the trade as it were. Some natura of the unexpected expected can open a door into new fresh perspectives in the compostion process.

Sometimes though the resulting output of these "randomizing tools" seems cold and sterile, ihuman. Therefore I feel a deep seated need to realize "Randomizing algoritynms" from a deeply reasoned "understood" relational network of elements. Some core of sensibilties and directions that can work together to create something like a genetic string that would make a randomized assited composition unfold in a profound and humanly musically relevant useful and inspiring way. It's not just an anything goes randomized system I am after. It needs to grow out of a seed code, that unfolds in a weighted balanced way based on a relational synergy of elements, so each proceeding step unfolds naturally yet without preexpectation. When a composition is finished at the last tone dying out it all just seems to mesh and last as long as is needed. Like the Bach Fuges I so love to play..

That sense of the rightness, that always wells up upon seeing "great" works of art and listening to music that sense that everything just seems to fit together in all it's elements.. It's predicatable in an unpredictable way..

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 08-14-2012 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:19 AM
TwoToneshuzz TwoToneshuzz is offline
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a margin of error. turned to creative advantage in an improvisation. A stroke of genius, lucky accidents.

An inspired drunk, the young fool tips the wrong spice into a pot and creates a new delicious dish.

Mans enviroment is a set around some basic material, hooks, for coats, handles on pots, doorknobs, bowls, lamps. These are basic daily use objects where form is tied to function. yet these everyday objects easy to hand sometimes because of an immediate need get crosspurposed. Finding this new use helpful a mind sets to work and soon this crosspurposed object can soon form the impuls for the creation of a new more narrowly focused form. The random is here is of kind that is tightly linked to needs, real life impulses create the possiblity of a seemingly random event. At the very least an event that breaks the mould, a little wooble in normality.

In art this happens all the time.

So this type of crosspurpose of resources in a near and to hand enviroment, often happens when lucky accidents occur. These accidents might be considered randomed events. But they occur in an ordered predicatble enviroment. The known world inspires to create another reality through usage through the expansion of empirical knowledge.

The relation development in a working process ties in with this concept. And perhaps is key to this strange sense of "rightness" in certain works of art.

Last edited by TwoToneshuzz; 08-17-2012 at 06:36 AM.
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